Flame & Flare - Learning Editions

Flame Career
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To that end, I think what you’ll find is that flame has a little bit of everything and it tends to be good when compared to most other packages, just not the best—the exceptions being the timeline which is easily best in class, and its performance which is a key pillar of the kit.

If the first to pillars of the Flame trifecta are the timeline and performance, then Batch is the Holy Goat of the trinity. Batch has a robust toolset for dealing with 2d material and doing so quickly and fluidly. As @allklier pointed out Paint is one of the better implementations. Fast point and planar tracking. A divisive garbage matting node which is very different from most other packages. Action, love it or hate it, is a force which you will adoringly praise when your needs fit neatly inside it, and curse wildly when you hit it’s ceiling—but it is fast and fluid and singular in it’s implementation. I don’t know of another package, living or dead, which ever combined compositing in 2d or 3d with a full compliment of masking tools, per pixel shaders, grading and more all in a single environment. It’s borderline stupid, but its prowess is the creative heart of Flame.

The interface is largely locked so you quickly develop muscle memory regarding function layout in each node/module which is very non-Nuke like. The kit is designed to be driven and not operated. One leans into swipes and hotkey combos the way one leans into a turn and finds their line through and out. You drive Flame with, well, zest. It harkens back to the the time honored tradition of one artist, one machine, one million dollars when a Flame bay (which could easily hit that cost for deployment) and an artist were the last line of defense for fixing everything that had gone wrong… including whatever the hell went down in the Henry Suite.

Perhaps not so helpful but some general musings.

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Adding to @cnoellert 's VFX poetry…

There are all kinds of tools, and all kinds of artists. There are the compers, and the painters, and the modelers and the riggers, and Resolve lovers and Premiere haters. They all have their tool belt and they get jobs done. Many of them also will say ‘that cannot be done’ or ‘this isn’t possible’.

The quint essential Flame artist will always answer ‘yes, of course’ and sometimes will be done before the clients finishes the phone call. This is as much about the artist as it is about the tool, but the two are symbiotic, which is very evident in this group of Flamers in particular.

There is no impossible job. Every job is a journey, and you never know the path when you step on it, except for the confidence that you will arrive on the other side and the client will have a smile on its face.

Flame is the ultimate Hail Mary tool, and it delivers every single f* time.

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I learned on that. It was watermarked. I ran it on my laptop at home to practice when I left the office. Currently learning Nuke and using their non-commercial version and very happy it exists.

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@fredwarren @slabrie There are some great comments on this thread. Agree that you can remove OFX (if a LE is meant for learning Flame, seeing if OFX works could be limited to the free trial where you can pretty quickly see that it works).

Seriously, not having a LE for Flame/Flare available is a major roadblock to using it as a compositing platform. We use a lot of contractors, giving work to a lot of senior Flame artists, but also getting juniors and mids in for projects. It is not cost effective for us to train these sort of people up on Flame when they already have knowledge in Nuke. It also makes time-poor people like myself reluctant to put a whole lot of time into training anyone showing an interest. If they can’t take what you have shown them outside of work to improve their skills then how do they get better without providing full access to software which is a hard cost in a user allocated license model.

I’ve now given quite a few folks their first opportunity in the industry. I know of other local vendors still using Flame. I’d happily also give some artists their first paid opportunity to work within Flame/Flare and spend the time with them to improve their skills (teaching them all my bad habits :rofl:). There are opportunities outside of our facility to encourage them to take the time to learn it. Flare is cheaper than Nuke, a lot cheaper than Nuke X but just as capable. I’d use it more as a platform if there were more that could use it. I’m sure that there would be plenty of others on here willing to provide a pathway towards more Flame artists if there was the software available to support this.

Please, for the love of Flame, can we find a LE solution that is usable enough for people to learn it whilst providing the protection Autodesk requires?

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Second to this LE request. I would also strongly push for @SamE or @ChrZap Flame for Nuke Artists courses to be freely available. Keep all the advanced courses paid for but either of those courses would be enough educational carrot to get some of these junior to mid Nuke Artists interested in Flame and more people being able to use seats. More seats means more dev money too. More Artists could lead to more people subscribing to Logik Academy. Is there a financial way to incentivise this @andymilkis @randy to make the course free but take a small fee from each new person who joins Logik Academy to go to either/both of these courses. I haven’t looked at either personally as I don’t have the need but once again, if we are wanting to get more people onto the Flame/Flare platform then free educational opportunities, that are already readily available for Nuke & Fusion, need to have their Flame/Flare equivalent. As much as we need a Learning Edition of Flame, we need the educational resources to support it.

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If it’s for students, and their teachers need to grade their work, yes. My son tried to get Flame into his school (AV / filmschool) went through the hoops and just simply did not get any reply whatsovever.. I’ve tried through personal contacts to get things moving but that didn’t help either. So.. he’s learning Resolve now. Idk what a kid has to do learn Flame… I also do not understand why making it hard for students to get into Flame helps growing the community and by extension, new business eventually… anyway… I’ll teach him when he finishes school (if he still wants it by then..)…

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I’ve got the feeling there’s going to be a whole lot of young Fusion Artists out there who realised there were way too many people trying to be colourists…

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I’m one of the youngest Flame artists I know and I’m about the same age as the software. The fact that I don’t know a single person in their 20’s using and learning the software has always raised a few alarm bells for me in terms of the product’s long term longevity. I’m 50/50 on it being discontinued in my working lifetime.

To that end I think a watermarked learning edition would be super helpful. But I also wish Autodesk would adopt something akin to the Blackmagic model of a much cheaper and kneecapped version of the software for entry level freelancers. (E.G. - No Burn support, project managment/framestore/etc locked down to one machine, any feature a big shop needs turned off)

I think the big difference between now and the 90’s is the folks who are gonna run big shops in their 30’s and 40’s aren’t spending their 20’s as runners or assistants at big companies anymore… They’re spending them as freelancers doing scrappy projects on laptops. And, typically, $5000 a year is a bit steep for people in that position.

DaVinci’s an interesting case study. They’ve managed to expand their userbase quite dramatically on the entry level side, without killing their legacy high end clients using it in an enterprise setting. The 5% of those entry level users who are gonna grow up to run shops of their own are what guarantee the software’s continued relevance. Flame doesn’t have that at the moment.

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you’ve just described every freelancer who has told me they have a Flame at home, which happens to be every freelancer.

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Yeah, who knows what “Flame Lite” looks like then. I just know some version of it needs to exist if the software’s going to continue to attract new users. :man_shrugging: Flame is great software and I’d hate to see it die on account of poor marketing and poor availability. Not saying Autodesk should open the floodgates like DaVinci did, but clearly DaVinci’s retained its prestige and high level userbase in spite of doing so.

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Davinci retained and grew its user base. Not sure it retained its prestige. It became the city bus of color correction. For everyone interested, and everyone who is both serious and cheap.

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I guess I mean prestige in terms of the scale of the projects DaVinci is used on, not in terms of being a member of an exclusive club… I guess I’ve never really cared about getting that feeling from my choice of software lol. I just care about a tool I love to use expanding its userbase so I can continue to use it. You can bemoan the “city bus” approach but the multiple threads in this very forum bemoaning the lack of junior artists tells you just how well the Lamborghini approach is working. I’m not sure what the solution is but it’s hard to deny that there’s a problem.

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The same flame has no up and coming artists discussion happened years ago well before smoke on Mac and when flame was actually priced like a Ferrari. I do agree that yes there needs to be more access to an actual useable learning edition rather than its current form. I will also add that even with that access to software its not going to necessarily explode flames user base, tutorials r a must and community is a must. Back when I learnt flame there was no Mac version and no trial and besides the user manual u were on ur own, the main thing was then was finding a place that let u have access to the system outside of when it was usually running non stop. Point being the artist who ends up jumping to flame or wanting flame will usually do that from their own drive .It takes a very particular person to be ok with driving flame in a room full of clients and it isn’t for everybody.

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I think the issue is two-fold. One is access to the software to learn how to use it. The second is having access to the kind of work that would push you towards it (or even a base-line understanding of why you might choose Flame over other more readily available options.)

That’s to say that even if more artists had access and were capable of learning it, the work tends to push people towards solutions. If all of your problems are square and flame is round…

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@cnoellert - agreed, almost especially if you begin to use flame, only to discover that the work is just adding subtitles…

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Nuke NC is great.

Baselight Looks is great.

Resolve Free version is great.

Houdini Apprentice is great.

There are probably more examples out there…

Scratch PLE has a gigantic watermark on the actual viewer , thats like… ok whatever really annoying as you cant see half your plate but cant complain for free.

they all have different limitations vs the full versions.

Be more open, get more users, the ones abusing Non-commercial versions are going to be way less than new customers no matter what limitations you put in…

Honestly how could you do actual work with like a watermarked 720p max output version of flame, even with ML upscaling and watermark removal - thats completely ridiculous, especially LIVE with clients LOL,

Same person that goes all that way to circumvent something like that will just crack it anyhow or uses fusion… lets face it.

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I would think the ideal student edition will have basic must have nodes(what we had like 15-20 years ago) and max resolution of HD. Thats the best you need to get things moving on flame and land in an assistant job.

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ChatGPT analysis of this thread cross referenced with the worldwide financial state of post production. This is a post to spark discussion and not writ on a stone tablet so to speak:

Let’s look at how Autodesk Flame’s cost and strategic positioning aligns (or misaligns) with the current global financial and technological landscape in post-production, including:

  1. Economic realities of the post-production sector (film, TV, advertising)
  2. The impact of AI on the industry
  3. Cost-benefit analysis of using Flame in 2025

:globe_showing_europe_africa: GLOBAL POST-PRODUCTION LANDSCAPE (2024–2025)

:clapper_board: Film & TV

  • Budgets are shrinking for mid-tier productions, especially outside of tentpole projects.
  • Streamers (Netflix, Disney+, etc.) are under pressure from shareholders and shifting to cost-efficient models.
  • Global content output is increasing, but average spend per project is dropping.
  • VFX and post houses are being asked to do more with less.

:television: Advertising

  • Advertising budgets globally are recovering slowly, but:

    • Shifting to digital and short-form content (Reels, TikToks, YouTube).
    • High-end TVC production is down.

  • Brands are moving toward in-house production or leaner post pipelines.

  • Speed and agility are prioritized over boutique quality in many markets.

:red_triangle_pointed_down: Summary:

Across film, TV, and ads, there is less room for expensive, legacy software—especially tools without flexible pricing.

:robot: THE AI REVOLUTION IN POST-PRODUCTION

AI is transforming post in ways that directly challenge Flame’s traditional value proposition:

Area AI Disruption Example Relevance to Flame
Roto & Tracking Tools like Runway, Kognat, Adobe Sensei Competes with Flame’s core tools
Color Matching AI-driven grading in Resolve, ColorLab AI Undercuts speed + talent needed
Cleanup & Enhancement ML-based denoise, upscaling, inpainting Reduces need for skilled comp
Editing & Rough Cuts Descript, Adobe Firefly, Pika Cuts into client-ready previews
Image/Plate Gen GenAI tools for background, sky replacements Threat to core comp work

Flame still excels in quality, speed, and integration, but its premium cost only makes sense for premium projects.

:money_bag: FLAME COST VS INDUSTRY BUDGETS

:wrench: Flame Cost (2025 estimates):

  • Full Flame License: ~$6,000/year per seat.
  • Flare: ~$1,000–$2,000/year (limited).
  • Token Use: Can cost up to 260% of the annual license if used heavily.
  • Hardware: Flame needs powerful Linux/macOS workstations, storage, and potentially costly support.

:factory: Post Production Budgets:

Segment Typical Post Budget Flame License Cost as %
Indie Film (<$1M) $30K–$100K 6–20% (1 seat!)
TV Episode ($1–5M) $100K–$300K 2–6%
Small Ad Campaign $10K–$30K total 20–60%
Big Studio Feature $1M+ for post <1% (makes sense here)

:right_arrow: Conclusion: For all but the highest-end work, Flame’s pricing is unjustifiable without a flexible entry-level version.

:brain: ANALYSIS: Does Flame Still Make Financial Sense?

:white_check_mark: Where It Does Make Sense:

  • High-end finishing suites with full client-supervised sessions.
  • Commercial houses doing fast-turn, high-quality VFX finishing.
  • Studios with dedicated Flame artists and integrated pipelines.

:cross_mark: Where It Doesn’t:

  • Indie filmmakers, freelancers, or studios juggling Nuke, Resolve, and Fusion.
  • Educational institutions (due to onboarding and support requirements).
  • Anyone targeting fast content cycles and short-form work.

:repeat_button: STRATEGIC RECOMMENDATIONS (Revised)

1. Launch a Flame Learning Edition (FLE)
→ Vital for future relevance, as talent must discover Flame early.
→ Watermarked, export-limited, OFX-disabled version to mimic Nuke NC or Baselight Look.

2. Create a Freelancer/Indie Flame Tier
→ Flame Indie or Flame Spark at $499–$999/year.
→ Features locked (e.g., no Burn, single-machine project, limited output).
→ Enough for paid work in low-budget scenarios—like how DaVinci Resolve Studio did it.

3. Rework Token Pricing
→ Introduce tiered, capped, and discounted token packs for solo pros and SMEs.
→ Incentivizes growth rather than punishing non-daily users.

4. Double Down on Education & Community
→ Flame for Nuke Artists course: free.
→ Integrate with Logik Academy or similar.
→ Offer academic support and visibility in film schools.

:end_arrow: Bottom Line

The post industry is leaner, faster, and increasingly AI-driven. Flame, without a serious rethink of access and pricing, risks becoming a legacy luxury tool, not a forward-facing creative platform.

Now is Autodesk’s moment to follow the lead of Houdini, Blackmagic, and Foundry: open the door to the future of artists—or risk locking them out entirely.

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Well, there is some irony in asking AI about business strategy.

For example comparing the cost of a annual Flame license with the post budget of an indie film and a small ad campaign. It has an informational component to it, but misses a lot of nuance on how business actually works.

Nobody buys one license to work on one film, or campaign. Plus it’s just the software cost, not the actual billing including artist and hardware. And for quite a few campaigns Flame wouldn’t make sense, but then for some it’s the only way, and it may not correlate with budget. Or Flame wasn’t part of the plan, but Flame now saves the day after the budget has been wasted on a lesser tool and gotten nowhere.

A better data point would be fully loaded day rate of an artist with all those different tools, the time it takes them to complete the typical tasks on these categories, and the impact their tasks have in comparison to people using alternate tools like Nuke, Fusion, AfterEffects, etc.

That would answer if it makes sense for businesses to higher Flame artists.

On the flip side, you can compare as an artist or as a studio, what is the fully loaded cost of an artist per day, what you can bill for that, and how it positions you competitively, to see whether that is still a viable business. And before you give up, you can look at what all the possible changes in the business model are, one of which is to change apps, another one might be to skip the sushi.

There’s also an element of whether you want to be among the millions of AE and Fusion drivers, or if you want to be among the many Nuke artists, or among the few Flame artists. It’s all about market positioning. There is value in scarcity if it is connected with something unique.

The French Laundry is still in business, as is McDonalds (having just watched the Thomas Keller episode of Chef’s Table on Netflix). I’ve heard McDonald’s revenue is down due pressure on their customer base. The French Laundry probably still has a long waiting list.

We’ve debated all these things many times, and as was pointed out in a few replies above, not much has changed.

Except now we have AI weigh in with its perceived wisdom…

AI is good at summarizing and connecting dots. It’s not very good at reasoning. This is definitely a reasoning problem, not a dot problem.

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The logic of big tentpole long form productions where it says “makes sense here” is a little baffling. Of all the places flame is actually in use on a larger scale, that’s the least likely spot you’d find it… I also don’t feel like the robot is taking into account flame is fast as hell. I just did 11 fairly complex beauty and clean up shots that needed done in a day and I did them… in a day, by myself. No team. Limited need for pipeline. Just me and a producer and that’s that. Happy client. Done.

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