Livegrain - any insights?

Well, a company that has a website that says nothing about their product other than to contact their sales team is somewhat suspect/suspicious to me. At least explain what your product is and does, or you look like a cult.

That being said, it’s all detailed in their patent, which I just read: US9438821B1 - Method for applying multi-layered film grain and texture mapping to a digital video image - Google Patents

They take issue with the fact that digital grain is not authentic, and that other common grain methods (e.g. Cinegrain) apply a singular exposed scan onto the image, and could have a repeating pattern.

I think the repeating pattern is solved or easily avoidable. That’s a red herring.

In their process they use up to 8 separate grain assets and repeat the process at different exposures (3 are for the film curve toe, slope shoulder; the other 5 are a simple band pass as we know from many color apps, including Flame’s tone operator in Image).

Lastly they allow the operator to mask and manipulate the grain. And are advocating that the regraining process be done during color correction.

We can argue about the perfect place in the pipeline to regrain. We just had the whole thread on whether you color before or after comp. So it’s not that easy to answer.

Does up to 8 luma separated grain layer look better than a single Cinegrain plate? I’m sure there is some material where that is true. Maybe three is sufficient in most cases.

Do you need their ueber expensive tool? I think if it’s important enough for you, and you have render cycles to spare and schedule real-estate for it, it’s totally fine to set that up yourself in Nuke, Flame or whereever.

The bigger issue might be getting a handle on separate exposure scans, and solving the problem that the most frequently used blend mode (overlay) works best at 0.5. But a bit of GLSL code fixes that fast.

As @aaronneitz said - this is probably in the 99.999th percentile of things that will elevate your image further. Everything else before that has to be to perfection. Best script ever, only A-list talent in front of camera, and in a good mood. Fantastic DP with unlimited budget. Perfect weather. blahblahblah…

The end result is only as good as the weakest link. The difference between 1, 5, or 8 grain luma separations is unlikely your downfall.

Spend the money on hiring better talent, feeding the crew, get an extra set day for a few extra takes or whatever. You’ll be glad you did.

PS: The argument/value proposition is also likely derived from the shit quality grain first and second generation digital cinema cameras came with. If you look at an Alexa35 or Sony Venice, the grain they produce is quite pleasing. Easy to extract via DasGrain (or Flame’s new Regrain node) and then restore. And then you don’t have to monkey with weird grain arithmetic, the sensor applied it based on exposure. It’s real and every frame is bespoke.

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The epic part is their 250tb of scanned negatives/grain. I guess they have examples of almost any stock that ever existed. You want some weird Russian black and white 16mm grain from the 50’s? They got it.

It’s very overkill and incredible diminishing returns. Especially in a world of streaming and compression. Would be an awesome plugin.

Sounds better than making socials, I think I’m now a grain artist.

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That sounds like a terrible waste of time. No way anyone will be able to differentiate at that level of granularity, and certainly makes ZERO impact on the quality of the story telling.

It’s giving FilmLight TrueLight film stock-emulation circa 2006. Fun, but hyper-expensive and in the end really only a jumping off point.

That being said it’s cool that they’ve scanned all of this grain at all of these different exposures and whatnot but shooting at 1600 ISO and then overlaying grain from Vision200 doesn’t make a picture shot on Vision.

The characteristics are completely wrong. If the grain sample was pushed +3/4 maybe you would get something more appropriate but rest assured the signal to noise ratio wouldn’t have favored a traditional 30 second spot. It would have been something the agency would have fought hard against if a DP had suggested it.

In the end, it’s just a creative tool—a well considered archival collection of creative tools but really nothing tied to a physical model. You can’t separate film speed, processing time and grain structure. They’re intrinsically linked.

If people want film look shoot on film. Be intentional, shoot fewer takes and know your craft—everything that someone considering this livegrain solution would likely not understand.

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ssshhh!

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“Oh man, that film would have been fucking incredible except I didn’t like the grain so it’s not worth seeing” said nobody ever.

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I am honored to announce my new Product

FinnGrain™

You ever wondered where all the Grain that we remove every day from plates go? Exactly! We are offering a recycled grain packaged, its the green and better way to add authentic grain to your shots.

Think Green, think FinnGrain™

Now just $4998 per commercial

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I thought contemporary dietary guidelines promoted grain-free food, especially free of refined and highly processed grains as better for health and aging.

At my super market grain-free alternatives usually fetch a premium.

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I’m saving 3 bucks and going with Randy

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his grain is not organic !!!

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or recycled…

You’re all fucked out of the west coast market cause none of y’all are gluten free.

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so funny…

bayer matrix to chemical emulsion imperfection emulation…

all the good ingredients…

meanwhile, d-day and starship 4 launch/land

Someone ought to suggest that grain might eliminate the banding from the cameras that live streamed the plasma bubble surrounding the spacecraft during re-entry via starlink…

It’s a race to the bottom :joy:

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Tangentially related, but I watched “Fire of Love” last night and it was one of the most beautifully shot films I have ever seen—despite being a documentary and despite being shot by complete amateurs on a wide variety of 16 and 35 mil film stocks.

Anyone saying that digital filtered can reproduce the complexities of images captured on film should watch this movie and go back to their room and sulk.

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Well, sorry entering in this coven. I like grain, I miss film textures, and I love how comped grain add beauty.
Good night.

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upcycled

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watched this one while i was down that fave docs rabbit hole. some amazing footage and what a wacky, lovable couple.

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Hey this sounds like a great product, having successfully run the Lint Recycling campaign, where one removes the lint from the tumble dryer filter and puts it back in your jeans pockets. It sounds like you have a grain surplus and I would love to get on board as FinnGrain’s marketing manager!

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