1 Like
Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with contemplating a clear-eyed strategy for a career or specific income targets. I for one jumped onto Flame early on because it was the coolest thing I’d seen — but also because of the comparatively high pay.
But also to Alan’s point, theorizing about it only goes so far and it’s best just to get out there and get your feet wet however possible.
If you’re like any of the rest of us, your ultimate path will probably look different from the first one you envision.
3 Likes
Yes, I’d like take a look.
1 Like
I understand that. I’m just putting out feelers since I’ve got extra time. I’m definitely not seeking a blueprint. I do find responses like his useful just for the context. It’s useful data still IMO.
sorry if im being rude, just joking, and giving you one angle, but I would start by posting showing your work, I wouldn’t set targets, I would work for companies with flame first and then you could try and offer it as one of your services. The more experience you get from the big known companies the easier it is to build trust with new direct clients. You need to build this up first you may be lucky it could all happen quick or it may take a a few yrs. Good luck and my the force be with you.
1 Like
ok
Im going to try and help…even more
Without prior work I would not approach a client. Unless your showing your non flame work, and convincinging them you can do the same on flame or something like that… oh yea it could take a month to make 10k or a year to make 100k or 10 years to make both
That’s it, … ima good person now, …but like a said read a Tim Ferris book may accelerate your progress.
If you can make it work with other software then just repeat with Flame
Good luck! and flame on,
,btw how much would you charge for gmask tracer roto?
1 Like
I just don’t think you could ever boil it down like this. My experience entering the field was of it’s time and not applicable to today. As a ‘senior’ now I can give individuals advice. But zero to 100k would be extremely hyperbolic. My advice would be… get good and charge people for that.
1 Like
I see. I did suspect the industry couldn’t be pinned down because of how quickly it changes. It does seem the uncertainty can’t be mitigated much, especially with the looming threat of AI. I realize now that my post comes off way naively optimistic. Offensively optimistic, even 
That does put things into perspective for me 
Depends on the complexity, frame count, urgency, and service level, no? Do you have a brief? My hourly rate for most work like 3D, VFX, mograph is $80/hr.
Seems low, especially if you’re freelance.
Take a look at the rate survey on this forum. It has a wealth of reference points.
2 Likes
Personally I would just submit your name to every possible opening or opportunity, it’s a numbers game. If you’re willing to work very hard and have some talent, then the numbers/probability eventually will hit.
The first real job I took in this I had imposter’s syndrome every day. But you grow into it.
2 Likes
The main point - it can be done. There are many on the forum here who support families, have bought houses, send kids to college - all earned with Flame work. It may take more than a year to reach your first $100K, but if you’e determined enough it is not irrational. It would take a lot of sweat, but that is what many of us do. Just be motivated to prove it.
2 Likes
Once upon a time I worked with a proper genius.
He used to four wall the paintbox room at ITV (I think it was called ITN at the time).
He would take the profit from that and buy cocaine in London and then sell it to his dons at Cambridge where he was mastering in physics.
He used this money to buy his first Porsche Turbo.
While at Cambridge he wrote the equivalent of Paintbox that ran on a Mac II.
The money he saved from his VFX/Drug dealing meant that he could buy Queen’s Counsel and avoid a prison sentence from the inevitable Quantel/Apple lawsuit.
This is an easy path to follow if you’re clever - but I’m dumb as a pile of bricks and poor as a church mouse.
9 Likes
Precisely. OP knows this. It’s a thought experiment.
Don’t take it too seriously @alan. It’s a conversation starter.
Our business is messy. Super messy. Making custom widgets that nobody has ever made before for customers who don’t know if they want a wadget or a wedget or a widget unit they see it means our work doesn’t scale well or translate at all to other more typical business models. There are no certifications, no degrees in Flame, nuthin like that.
There are three types of power one can possess.
1. Role Power
Definition: Role power comes from the specific role or position a person holds within an organization or group. It is often linked to the responsibilities and authority granted by that role.
Examples:
- A Senior Flame Artist has the power to allocate resources and assign tasks within their project.
- A teacher has the authority to grade students and manage classroom activities.
Characteristics:
- Derived from organizational structures or formal roles.
- Often linked to specific duties and responsibilities.
- Can be temporary or permanent depending on the position.
2. Relationship Power
Definition: Relationship power is based on the interpersonal relationships and networks a person has. It comes from the influence one can exert through connections, trust, and rapport with others.
Examples:
- A VFX Supervisor who has a good relationship with the ECD can influence decisions through informal conversations.
- A team member who is well-liked and respected by colleagues can motivate and influence the team’s behavior.
Characteristics:
- Built through trust, respect, and personal connections.
- Often informal and not tied to a specific role or position.
- Can be powerful in navigating organizational politics and achieving goals through collaboration.
3. Knowledge Power
Definition: Knowledge power is derived from the expertise, skills, and knowledge a person possesses. It is the influence one has due to their specialized understanding or mastery of a subject or process.
Examples:
- A Flame Artist with deep expertise in specific compositing skills can guide and influence the technical direction of a project.
- A scientist with extensive knowledge in a particular field can lead research initiatives and influence scientific discussions.
Characteristics:
- Comes from education, experience, and expertise.
- Often recognized through credentials, reputation, and demonstrated competence.
- Can be leveraged to solve problems, innovate, and provide valuable insights.
The weakest of these powers is that which is provided by your Role. The strongest of these powers is that which is provided by the Relationships you possess. The other, of course, is what you know.
Clients will always trade first on trust. They have to have experienced you delivering exceptional work or know someone they trust who has. Without said trust, they will be the next trade on your client list. Do you work for clients they trust? Do they respect the creative work of those clients? And finally, they trade on what you know.
A recommendation, a client list, a showreel, a website, a LinkedIn profile, and a director’s treatment are all different methodologies by which clients decide who is the best artist to serve their project.
5 Likes
Are a significant number of Flame Artists doing it remotely, as of today? I would think those numbers are rising. After all, what part of this job requires my body being in a certain location on the globe? Everything is on the screens.
Relocating is only worth the hassle for me if it significantly (like night and day difference) increases my chances of getting steady work. Or do Flame Artists ever land the job first and then receive a relocation stipend. Does that happen very much at all for Flame Artists?
Interesting premise. I figure you’re from the US. Then you’ve got a head start being from a first world country. US and continental Europe+UK has a strong post production market.
If you are in post production, which I presume you are, “uncertainties surrounding career viability in such a specialized niche.” would apply for other software as well, in my opinion. But yeah, Flame is a niche within a niche.
Depends a little on your age as well. I started when I was really young doing whatever was available wherever. Didn’t have the luxury to choose, hailing from the back waters of (insert third world country). Perseverence is key I believe, like any production position, experience will make you better.
When you say your first 10K, do you mean when you can put it in your savings or the first 10K you earn? Again, depends A LOT where you’re earning that 10K.
Regarding your last question:
As Flame artists we used to rule the room. This, of course, was back in the day when directors/producers spent hours if not days in our suites. There are many here who would tell stories of sessions where weird things happened. Nowadays, most of the senior artists have gone freelance/remote. But there are still some occasions where we are the front facing, last stand of the production during client sessions, defending the castle against the hordes (too dramatic? yeah I’m one of the old farts here)
Best of luck
4 Likes
With your experience in Flame I wouldn’t pay you more than 100/day, and would probably count that as a loss to me, and paid training for you.
Ive come across clients that had bad experiences with unexperienced flame artists pretending to be experienced, and did not want to hire flame artists again, and give flame a bad name, so you gotta be careful, as you could ruin it for someone else. Niche=Small circles.
I call this The REAL imposter syndrome. They just come and go.
1 Like
If the aim is to get to $10K quickly then I would recommend changing careers and become a supermodel. Linda Evangelista said “I don’t get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day” and that was almost 30 years ago. Once you factor in inflation, you could probably earn $10K in half a day and $100K in a week.
I hope that helps!
5 Likes
That is fallacy too many fall in.
Primarily you should charge what the task is worth not who is doing it, and secondarily a premium for the eye and experience of the operator.
If you are paying for an in-person sessions and then it becomes obvious that you’re not well practiced because you’re looking around for tools or Google how to do something, then yes, this becomes a problem.
But when most work is offline/remote, as long as you can get the work done up to the expected standard and in the time promised, it doesn’t matter how often you Google something or you talk to someone on Discord. And if you take 3 times as long, you’re effective rate may in fact be $60, but that’s on you, not the person paying for the task.
Your eye and judgement is another matter. More junior people may feel like a shot is done, when there is more that can be refined and maybe the client expects more refinement.
The reason this is a fallacy, is that in recent years we’ve seen it become easier to enter new skills without coming up the old way up the ladder and learning from seniors. So if you come in and charge $60 or $80 for a task which in the old system you may not have tackled until year 5 or after, you lower the price floor in the market and train customers that the task they may have paid $200 for just the week before, could be had for $60. And suddenly everything is a race to the bottom.
So you either have to let people charge traditional rates, even if they haven’t had traditional career paths, or you end up destroying the market for everyone. Alternatively you can just yell at those people to get off your pad, that they don’t deserve to be there unless they roto’ed stuff for a few years.
This discussion has played out so many times in different industries and always gets people worked up. Go look at commercial photography which is paid on usage, not hours spent. Too many new comers charged by the hour and mostly destroyed the industry.
Personally I think it’s great that people want to enter different fields and are eager to learn. It’s worth embracing, but lets also teach them good business practices and make sure the tide rises for everyone and stop creating sink holes.
1 Like