Logged in to post my thoughts on this exact topic. Was in the middle of a setup, going through the matchbox nodes and couldn’t help but think of how much value individuals like Ivar and Mark, added to our community. Reality hit me hard, knowing we have lost these talents, but this thread gives so much hope that there are others out there who continue to carry the torch. More than happy to contribute and and support those guys out there that do this.
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I’m down to both chip in as well as provide shaders and python bits, probably more Python than shaders though. All my K_ shaders are pretty elementary. I’m a bit more handy in Python though as I hate repetitive tasks so I’m all down to automate anything I can.
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Not very active on this forum but thought it was a good moment to chime in. And apologies of my rant rubs someone the wrong way.
logik-matchbook.org is operational and I do intend to operate it as long as it makes sense. I would like to have some kind of a custodian who would know what to do and have the necessary tools at their disposal should anything happen to me though, because if what happened to Mark and Ivar is any indication: digital legacy is really a thing. At the minimum we could try to make arrangements so that the domain gets transferred to someone from the community who I know and trust should anything happen. Alternatively we could move logik-matchbook to a logik.tv subdomain, if I can get sufficient control of the DNS zone to ensure everything works correctly, obtain the SSL certificates, configure the CDN and not have to chase people around if these things need to be altered. This would ensure at least some form of continuation in emergencies.
As it stands now, logik-matchbook is written in Ruby on Rails (not in Python) and I do not intend to do a rewrite – first I have enough fun working with tools I don’t like as $dayjob already 
and second because the language - as long as the platform works - is not what should matter when you look at logik-matchbook as a contributor of shaders or a consumer. The user experience is what should matter. Integrating with other tools is achievable (for example logik-matchbook ships a Python-based installer and nobody complained so far).
There are a few reasons why I do not feel comfortable making it open-source (trust me I dig open source and have a ton of stuff available, just not this project). However, if someone has some RoR familiarity (or wants to build it up) they can become a co-author, I can mentor you in getting up to speed on the language/ecosystem. So far the only person making tangible feature requests was Ivar, and it would be very motivating if there were more people doing that (instead of, say, building alternative resources). I would really appreciate some input from the community where logik-matchbook should go.
There are a few angles to the problem we have @randy The first one is that the expectation from ADSK was, I believe, that creating the .MX shader package format would create a vibrant commercial market of those shaders. In practice the only commercial offering that emerged was Mark’s, and now we do not have even that. I would love for Mark’s legacy to continue as well, but because his software is in MX and was a commercial offering it seems that it will starve off, unless two possible things happen:
- There is some way for Mark’s software to continue being distributed commercially
- Mark’s family decides to release his shaders into the public domain
If the former thing is a thing we could try creating a marketplace based on logik-matchbook for shaders distributed commercially. I assumed Mark didn’t think about this and thus hasn’t contacted me, or he didn’t have time for it, or he assumed that building his own distribution channel would work better. I don’t know.
If the latter thing happens then (IMO) MX can be declared a failure and the encryption can be disclosed, so that existing MX shaders can be studied. I don’t know where ADSK would stand on this given that the last ML shaders from them are MX, but we could start a conversation.
We could do a course on GLSL shader writing - I started something similar with Joel way back, but it fizzled out. Maybe we should discuss how this can be revived. Mind you - I also suck at math and I would likely have some difficulty addressing more complex topics. Like - some of Ivar’s shaders wouldn’t be possible to dissect for me simply due to lack of chops. But @lewis could certainly help here
Is there any new blood coming through?
Doesn’t look like it. The way Flame/Smoke have been marketed and at which price has a lot to do with that. There was a moment where Flame could have been made super-affordable to allow for influx of talent, but - at least from my understanding - there were multiple concerns about this (how would sales be affected? will a “Big Post House With A Name Reminding Of Something Rotating” be sad about just having paid for $very_many_licenses? etc.). It is also something I thought about a lot, but there are only so many things one could worry about in life and I kinda let this one sail.
There seem to be gizmo’s galore in the nuke community and no sign of any slowdown.
There was a lot of focus on automation and reusability in Nuke as a product to begin with. In Flame, up until very very recently, the way of doing things faster was considered to know where you need to tap with the pen and at which velocity you could do it (and how many times). Also, Nukepedia was - at least when it began and evolved - also a labor of love of one person, it was Frank. Nukepedia offered all the bits which you could integrate with Nuke, logik-matchbook only offered shaders (since shaders and Sparks were the only available thing at the time). When pybox and flame-python happened another site sprung up and we didn’t consolidate - partly my fault. Maybe we can improve the situation somehow 
This is getting quite long already, but I guess it boils down to:
- What do we, as a community, want to be the end state of the ecosystem (or the intermediate state of the ecosystem)
- How do we look at the problem of succession?
And on that edge I much rather have a conversation about what we, as a community, want as output / result rather than whether something should or should not be (re)written in Python.
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I wish I had that tomorrow with my 160 deliverables…
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I would subscribe for sure. With the amount of money we all spend on digital subs lately, I would probably never notice.
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Miles, I’ve waited for a vey long time for that kind of timeline/media stuff to be available in the python API. I’ve been so swamped the past few months that my pythonning had to be put on hold (with the exception of some updates to existing scripts and one new script). I’m totally going to take a crack at this in 2021!
@AndyBrown: For deliverables, I wrote a python script that would look at the name of the clip and export it with a specific preset. For example, if I had two versions of a cut, 1 @ 16x9 and the other @ 1x1…if there’s a 1x1 in the clip name then the python script would export it with a preset that crops it to 1080x1080 on the way out 
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Wow. There is a lot to unpack here.
Let me take a bit to digest all of this. I think here are some amazing points and bright spots brought up here.
People wanting to help, the concept of digital legacy/succession which, until recent, hasn’t been a collective concern of ours…wow…lots of amazing things to think about here.
Hint. If you’ve noticed over the past few releases, a hotkey for such and such is presented as a new feature. You’re probably like whatever, but in the API they’ve snuck in a method called flame.execute_shortcut. Pretty brilliant IMO. My mastering scripts couldn’t exist without it. It’s all about selection and execution. flame.execute_shortcut. Im just sayin.
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Nice!
We have 160 slates ready for next week’s delivery in multiple aspect ratios so that is very appealing.
I appreciate all the new stuff in the python api, but IMHO, I think the pace of change is glacial. They are adding low hanging fruit and inexplicably adding only a handful of nodes to the api instead of just adding all the batch nodes in a major release.
I submitted a feature request for flame.execute_shortcut to add all button support (you can only call a button if the user defined a hotkey 
) and also ability to pass parameters and auto-confirm. But it got shot down for whatever reason.
I’m not going to add too much because this should be it’s own topic. I’m amazed what you and others have achieved with what you are given in the api, but the python api doesn’t seem like a high priority on their list and I’m feeling that they are reluctant to open up access to the rest of the app.
If Autodesk were to ‘pythonify’ every signal and slot and qt widget in the program, the community could really benefit and we can create a ton of functionality.
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@DannyYoon You are right, it moves slow. Every point you make is correct IMO, other than the shot down part. We need to remember, people writing python for flame will always be a minority of users / places. I know for a fact that the python goal of the dev team is to get everything in there, but they work for a multi faceted global corporation where Flame itself is a minority in the C something O’s mind. Although I take advantage of Python in Flame, I’d rather the dev team spend the few resources they’re given making sure we can import all the new camera formats, play back real time and open up the world of OFX to us, etc … Python is icing. But like you said, this should be its own topic. Good idea. Maybe @randy could figure out a good way for us to collaborate and suggest. Flame Devs do listen.
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I must be honest, I would probably not be able to be monthly consistent about it because dollars for a Brazilian are very heavy at the moment, but I would absolutely put an effort. It is certainly worth it.
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I have zero doubt that @julik has already seen this, not sure about the rest of you.
Also, thank you, Julik, for building, maintaining, and thinking about logik matchbook over the last decade or so. The fact that as a freelancer I can roll up to a new company, download a bunch of lifesaving software extensions in a few seconds, and use them without so much as a root password most of the time is a goddamn gift that I’m not entirely sure I deserve.
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I’m an outlier in that I taught myself Flame when I was 22 with my college’s Linux box. Now I’m 28, and I’ve still never worked at a post house or otherwise risen through the ranks in any traditional sense. Hence my OFoW entry being slapped together on a fossil.
I freelance as a short-form director, VFX artist, and VFX supervisor, and while I do technically use Flame for all these jobs, it’s rare that I’m hired specifically to be a “Flame Artist.” Even rarer that I’m paid accordingly. This makes cost of a subscription pretty daunting and switching to Nuke to cut costs is always a thought in the back of my head.
My point here is to flag that there’s this giant community of VFX artists like me - spending their 20’s in scrappy, low-overhead, high-autonomy corners of the industry - who could be using and learning Flame, but aren’t due to lack of access. Which means when they get older and set up proper post houses, they’re gonna stick with the software they know… Not Flame.
Ultimately I think the issue lies with Autodesk’s lack of interest in courting these users. If a more modest subscription model were targeted at them, people would have an incentive to discover this amazing community and the new blood problem would solve itself.
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I like the Houdini/Unreal Engine model of being very low priced if you aren’t making money on the software, but going up in price as you profit from it’s use. That’s reasonable and also allows a lot of newbies to get on the software and check it out.
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Hard agree! There’s no reason the legacy turnkey-style model and us scrappier freelancers can’t co-exist. Especially if you remove support from the subscription (which I assume is a large part of the cost)
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Thanks everyone for an enlightening thread. Helpers helping, as Mr. Rogers would say. @andymilkis and I have been inspired by your words and kindness and have a renewed interest in some projects that have been on the shelf for a while. You’ll be hearing about those soon. In the meantime, your continued support and spreading the word about this site is the best way to help us get you more and better stuff sooner.
Love ya.
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I f’in love Mark’s Shaders and bought them only around 8 months before his death and had some great correspondence with him in terms of ideas for what he could add to his Shaders. Just off the top of my head, and forgive me if this is clumsy thinking, but I cannot help but think that they would go to waste if they were not continued to be useable. I can go about using them (and do) and as I have paid my money, but it is such a shame that others cannot use them. Could somebody approach his partner and suggest that they be released as “donate ware” and that a PayPal account is attached to a download site for donations that she would receive? People could then choose to donate as much or as little as they can? Again, in the spirit of keeping the flame of him alive, does it not make sense to also approach her to make the code available so that someone else could build on it. The only other option is for the code to go to waste and for nobody else but who already owns the shaders to make use of them. Nobody at all gains from such a scenario. Could somebody make an approach in terms of Mark’s shaders?
Cheers
Tony
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Hiya @johnt and @TonyRichards. I’ve merged this topic with a previous one as we started this conversation a few months ago so figured it’ be good to bump it and use this opportunity to update you all.
I am not aware that a member of the community has worked with Mark’s family and I feel reasonably strongly that that is a private matter. Also, I don’t think Autodesk would ever get involved. It’s not their problem and it’s not their fault and it won’t drive sales. “Publicly Traded Co. Revives Niche Community’s Free Niche Tools” wouldn’t exactly fit in the Shareholders Report, but then again I’m a shiite copywriter so that’s on me.
Also, and I know this is confusing and you probably know this, but @julik’s Logik-matchbook.org is unaffiliated with Logik.tv. Based on @julik’s comments above, digital legacies are a real problem and we’ve got to find a solution soon.
@johnt we’ve known each other a long time so you know what’s coming. I’m going to dust off my red white and blue soapbox again. Apologies in advance.
Controversially, this is our problem. And it’s our fault. As a community we’ve historically made it hard to share expertise, share experience, share tools and share sweat equity for the betterment of all of us. I once met 2 Flame Artists that worked at competitors across the street from each other for a combined total of 80 years in this business, and met each other for the first time at each other’s retirement party. Obviously that is a unique situation but I’m willing to bet that happens more than we think. And that’s no longer good enough.
Now I’m thinkin’ the same thing you are. It’s partly Autodesk’s fault. They’ve created a closed platform. It’s hard to get in and out of it. Sure. Totes. Agreed. It’s come a long way in a few years and has a long way to go. But, it’s not their problem. And we have to do something about it. The good news is we are doing something about it. Here are some insights. After all, we only get to complain about something once. If we complain about it a second time, that’s called whining. And there’s no whining at Logik. 
Most importantly, we’ve must build a community of passionate Flame Artists. We’re doing that right now. And we are knee deep in this phase and we desperately need your help to grow this. We’ve been at it for about 6 months now, and have plateaued at around 800 users. We are still 1/5th of the number of members of the old Facebook Group. Some of those may be Russian Bots sent by The Foundry to fragment us and divide us into not trusting Vertical Reels users, @Kirk for example, but still, 4,000 users on Forum.Logik.tv is a goal of mine and it should be yours too. I know it sounds ridiculous, but, its simple economics. Like trading a paperclip for a pen and down the line trading for Porsche, well, that’s the economics of building a community. And right now, we’re trading a little bit your YouTube subscription, your podcast subscription, and you showing up here, logging in, and liking posts…well, we are dangerously close to gaining serious attention and getting serious support. So, if your mates aren’t here, we need your help to change that.
On the near horizon is to build a community of passionate helpers. That’s cookin’ too! We’ve got a few solid sponsors and soon we’ll be announcing ways for them to help you more. Many of you have approached me asking to help…technical support, python development, matchbox development, career coaching, business development…it’s amazing! And we are on the cusp of organizing and announcing some amazing services for you all. And the Patrons! Thanks to you and about 60 others, we’ve been able to validate the value of our community we’re creating and are chipping away at creating real capital to do real good. That is a unique challenge as well. With all the work it takes and all the expenses we have to do what we are doing right now, it’d be far more profitable to work with you from 9-6 then from 11pm to midnight, if that makes any sense.
Eventually, we can talk about creating some kind of central location for all the stuff we need…technical support, Matchbox, Python, accounting help, legal help, business development, social support, career coaching, community outreach, education., etc.
I know the website needs help, I know the forum needs to be integrated better, I know it’s not exactly easy to follow along with all the stuff we are doing. We’re on it. @andymilkis and I are chipping away at it in between our day jobs and surviving a pandemic. In the meantime, please subscribe, like and consume the content we are putting out, get your mates to show up here, volunteer for a Logik Live episode or Logik Podcast or Renderdome, join us live for Logik Live, share about us on social media, or support us on Patreon.
If we get this sorted, we’ll all get nice things soon.
Love ya.
Off soapbox.
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Soapbox is fine - it’s good to let it go -
To add to the discussion; ten years ago I moved to Singapore to start up a Mill office. Logik on facebook was a new thing (I think…?) it saved my bacon a lot and I’l never forget that. Thank you. I also worked with Mark Doney. He was a nice fella. A bit old school and stand offish at first just like Randy described but very talented and desperate to share his wisdom. I think we all are really. We say we feel like frauds but I’m reminded of Blackadder and say to you all, “ You might at least have told us you had a trumpet.”
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