The red banner is obnoxious

As someone who is starting out and trying to learn the deepest program ever, Pro has been a godsend. I get to talk to people who are starting out like me and people who are at the top of their respective games. Living in a relatively small metro area, the options are severely limited. There aren’t any post houses near me that use flame so all my learning has been online. I have one other forum/discord flame user near me. So other than Flame Learning Channel (which may be DOA now that Grant is gone) and FXPHD, where am I to go to get in to flame and skill up enough to make a job switch? It’s not possible.

I would never have had the opportunity to have such an interactive learning experience otherwise. If I want a class on something, usually all someone needs to do is recommend something on the forums and a week later it’s covered in one of the existing classes or queued up for an upcoming class. I’ve learned more in two months than I have in the previous year. Considering that FXPHD is the only other resource for learning Flame remotely, I would gladly rather put my bucks up for something that’s still cranking out content rather than sitting on old tutorials that are years old and are not being updated with the new tools and techniques.

It’s not for everyone. It’s not designed to be. But for people like me it’s a godsend.

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In principal I like subscription over perpetual payments. But the way subscriptions are trending, it’s death by 1,000 cuts (eh subscriptions). In isolation each makes perfect sense, but if you add all your subscriptions up, it’s a massive tax bill. I try to keep a spreadsheet around to track them, it’s probably 50-75 of them across software, services, licenses, and content. It adds up to thousands a month. Has made me a lot more weary.

At least a $89/mo subscription makes you think for a second before you click ‘subscribe’ as compared to the $1.99/mo this or that :joy:

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Please make the banner more red.

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Oh. You asked so nicely.

Done.

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Thank you.

My iPhone has a slightly larger gamut. I think that you can squeeze a little more red out of that. What colour space are you designing this in :thinking:

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I’m in the process of setting up a VFX division. It is going to start reasonably small but we have enough work on big projects coming on the horizon to scale it up quickly. The big conundrum is what compositing platform to base it on. I’m the type of person who wants to do something differently. I’m amazed at how much more work Flane artists seem to be able to get through and the quality is always pretty good. So Id love to be able to choose Flame/Flare as a platform. The issue though is, there isn’t the talent to support it. Sure, I could try to hire a bunch of Nuke artists and teach them the dark arts of Flame. First, the number of Nuke Artists that would want to jump to another platform is small and then there is the time it would take to train them up. From a business perspective, Nuke & Flame are a similar cost, I wouldn’t need to spend time and training getting them up to speed (as well as all future hires) so it almost forces you to choose Nuke as the compositing platform over Flame. Then you’d just spend the time trying to introduce a Flame mindset into the staff where they completely own and quality control their own work.

The other platform that makes business sense is Fusion because of the software costs you’d save. It is fast but definitely lacks some of the features of Flame & Nuke. Trying to find experienced Fusion Artists is extremely difficult though as most have jumped to Nuke. Paint in Fusion isn’t great but you’d just buy Sillhouette for it. Still way cheaper (and better for paint) than a Flame or Nuke subscription. Disclaimer here, I think Flame and Nuke are at the correct price point, I’m not suggesting a race to the bottom.

The thing is though, as is so often discussed, where is the next generation going to come from. I’d have to say that I doubt very much that a young person keen to becone a compositor is even going to come across Flame and then from there is going to stumble on to the academy pro classes. I did a search for Flame courses then also did a similar search for Fusion. Next to nothing came up For either. Then you search for Nuke and it’s chalk and cheese. There is a plethora of online courses available. On top of that, there are a load of educational institutions running Nuke courses as well. The same could also be said about Resolve. Maybe from Resolve you could potentially get some junior Fusion artists?

Logik & the Logik Acadeny will only get massive praise and applause from me that you are trying to do this. It is badly needed. As a potential employer I’d love to support the next generation of Flame Artists and am currently trying to hire a couple for a small core team. From a business perspective though, it is going to be a very hard argument to win to choose anything but Nuke as a platform once you start looking beyond 4-6 artists. Autodesk really need to do more to market the product and get knowledge of it out there. The kids know about Nuke. They’re probably hardly even aware of Flame. In my heart I want to put Flame in place as the compositing platform. My head is beginning to think that it is a bad idea. Please feel free to convince me otherwise. I feel a bit of a traitor for saying all of this but I need to do what’s right from a business perspective. I also plan to hve this chat with Flame product management.

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Wreck709.

The Young And The Restless Joke GIF by CBS

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I need a new phone.

I completely appreciate your conundrum. As someone who has recently (and still very much is in the process of) learning Flame coming from other apps (among them Nuke), I will say that Flame is an incredibly difficult (way above average) application to learn. If you have to do that in a production environment where you have deadlines and commitments and only limited senior artists that can mentor and supervise would be a risky bet.

The main issue is that most of Flame’s tools and processes lack transparency and intuitive user interfaces. You have fewer basic building blocks, but instead more tools that look like macros with lots of dials that have been added over the decades. The labels are not intuitive. It can take forever to find something in the tool bin if you come from Nuke because it’s not called what you might expect. There is 30 years of tribal knowledge and tinkering in the platform, but no overall design paradigm. I guess some of that got cleaned up in the anniversary edition, but that is a decade ago, and more crust has developed since.

Example: If you need to freeze a frame, in Nuke you quickly find the the intuitive ‘FrameHold’ node. In Flame you have to use the ‘Mux’ node. Somebody has to teach you that, rummaging through the tool bin you will not figure that out. When Flame needed a freeze frame feature way back when, instead of making a node for that, someone decided, oh we have this other node already everyone uses, let’s just stick a button in the bottom and call it ‘freeze current frame’, done deal. Also doesn’t make it easy to see which frame it’s freezing or changing that frame. In Nuke that’s a numeric input field. Repeat this 10,000 times and you end up with Flame as we have it today.

To the experienced artist who has grown up and eats this stuff in his cereal every morning, that’s not an issue, and these much higher level tools are what enables the speed at which Flame artists can operate. But to the new generation that is a major headwind and frustration point. You can look at a Nuke script and largely deconstruct what it does. Look at at a Flame batch, and it will be hit and miss. And if you haven’t done a particular workflow in a while and didn’t take any notes, you’ll take some time remembering what some of the buttons do.

There is no easy fix for that. It is what makes Flame great to experienced aritsts, and has worked in traditional setups where people have come up through ranks over time and were surrounded by others with more experience. In the new landscape that isn’t that easy. And there is not enough effective learning material available to make up the difference.

An additional challenge is that in today’s environment many people will be multi-app artists. No one should put all their career eggs into one basket in today’s market. So Flame is competing for memory capacity and fluidity when artists have to remember how to do that in Nuke and in Flame, and several other apps. That’s major disadvantage for complex and non-intuitive user interfaces.

There are certain type of work (especially when color or cleanup is involved, more real-time playback / attended session, timeline/online) where Flame does win over Nuke as a platform, and depending on the type of work you expect, it may be worth figuring out a way forward. But if that’s less of a concern, Nuke may be the safer bet.

That’s my personal experience. Other’s mileage may vary.

I do love Flame and am committed to keep learning and taming the beast because I see value in it.

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Thank you so much for your understanding and taking the time to write such a detailed reply. That perfectly encapsulates my issue. Flame is an awesome tool and I personally love it. However, when the only other people around that love it are the ones who have been using it for a couple of decades, it makes it hard to be a tool of choice to build a comp team around. If I was going to keep the team nice and small, based around 2-4 seniors with one junior then it would make sense to use Flame, but I think we’re going to need to grow much bigger than that so it is really limiting as a platform.

Fusion is an interesting one. It actually has the speed of Flame, with an approach more akin to Nuke (and shake in the past). However, it is lacking a few major tools and once again, there aren’t the people around who know or want how to use it. Since we have a Resolve back end, this is a shame as it would fit nicely into our workflow. I may have more luck finding people who would switch from Nuke to Fusion though.

It really does look like Nuke is the safest option, which is a shame as I have an affinity with Flame, but Flame would be incredibly hard to justify.

From what I remember, Fusion started as Eyeon Fusion and has a long history (since '87) as a cheaper alternative to Nuke (since '93) and mirroring many of its concepts, but with less depth in some aspects. It can be used both as a standalone app and inside Resolve as a page. I’ve used it more regularly many years ago, mostly as the standalone app. Playback speed used to be hit/miss, relying on a cache like many apps.

It’s two advantages are cost and the Resolve integration (works pretty similar to BFX in Flame). But the drawbacks are a smaller talent pool, and you should check into the support models. Learning materials used to be decent pre-BMD, then there was a big through but I believe it has gotten better as more Resolve users have started to use it. Depending on your IT environment, also compare how they run on Linux. Nuke should be solid. Resolve exists, but I have no idea how reliable. I have heard mixed things. Same for cloud deployments.

If you can manage the cost of Nuke, that seems like the safer choice. Not sure how the change in the pricing by Foundry (switching from perpetual to subscription recently) changes the math there. It should make scaling up/down more seamless.

Nuke is pretty much the only choice.

I always wonder what Combustion and Shake would look like if they hadn’t been killed off. I think Autodesk made a mistake when they killed Combustion. The particle and paint system in Conbustion was amazing and still far superior to what is currently on Flame, which is a shame. Shake is the easiest software I have ever come across to just sit down and use, even if you weren’t familiar with it.

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https://www.awn.com/animationworld/discreet-combustion-reviewed

“…smaller talent pool.”
Ain’t that a fact. We looked for months for somebody that knew that software well enough to function in a fast pace, longform environment doing cleanup and fixes- we found no one. This is in the Los Angeles market.

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Seems like for the difference in price for a single license you could take a week or two of downtime and train Nuke artists… or even Flame folks. Provided of course you can even find someone to train… probably come out on top in the end.

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I think this is why Pro is needed. Seeing that Autodesk isn’t interested in training anyone and with the shift to remote/hybrid work everywhere, the old paradigms are kind of out the window. The fact that I can live where I do and learn flame and pick up remote jobs is awesome and I would be able to do that if it weren’t for what I’ve learned and more importantly the connections that I’ve made on Pro.

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Doesn’t a combination of Flame and Nuke seats make sense for a small team? The ratio can vary, but say if you have three artists, one can be Flame and the other two Nuke. Their task will be sort of obvious, minding what are the strength of each software. As things progress you could reevaluate if this needs to be adjusted. I promise you Nuke artist will envy the speed at what Flame can scrub through footage.

I see learning Flame as something valuable to have in your pocket if you go freelance or go work in a smaller team. Many artists decide to go solo after years of working for bigger companies. That I think is a selling point for senior Nuke artists.

I am glad I know Flame now after years of Fusion, Shake and Nuke… Nuke work still pays for the mortgage tho :wink:

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If I was only planning on running half a dozen seats or less then I’d almost certainly go Flame then account for the cost of training. The thing is though, that we may end up with multiples of that number.

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If you go with Nuke, plan for some form of a render farm. This of course depends on what type of work you do. Nuke artists tend to rely on a farm to get the work done. Unless the do lots of precomping. I know many artists that do 0 precomps in their scripts… they rely on previewing a few frames along the frame range and let the farm take care of render time. Long time ago an Inferno artist asked me… why you guys don’t render stuff as you comp? I gave my reasons, but since then my Nuke scripts have a bunch of writes and respective reads along the flow.

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