Something for 2022? Who's in?

Paul, I’d totally forgotten or bypassed that parallel in Solaris, which is strange as it’s one of my favourite films by one of my favourite directors. I often have conversations about a space or sci-fi race between Kubrick and Tarkovsky, and thus between 2001 and Solaris and the latter always comes out the winner. Like another film I’m a fan of recently (Aniara) the earth is not an empty shell or vessel to be escaped in some pure velocity, but is something that is mourned and and saturates or marinates us to our core. It is an ecology that “we” ourselves are, and not something that can be thrown away, or we can choose to throw away as in a crisp wrapper or, in this case, “Kris wrapper.” Hence all those long duration shots before Kris leaves the port of planet earth (in the river, the mo/u/rning fog and the unbelieavbly long car journey shot) and then the crew members, once he gets to the ship orbiting Solaris, who fall back on paper in the vents to remind them of the rustling leaves that they’d left behind. Aniara has a holodeck that is something a bit deeper and a bit scarier and scar-ier than the r&r machine that you get on StarTrek like some crappy shore leave. In Aniara and Solaris the past is not something we can merely move or space-ship away from. Hence also his wife as the primal figuration of mourning: the planet keeps duplicating her and the repressed keeps returning. The figuration of duplication is a nice coincidence here as a figuration of identity. That also reminds me of Triangle where she keeps bumping into herself at the top of the stairs, and each time each would be the original.

Derrida can be a bit difficult in terms of how you use him as he is often taken, with his in/famous “there’s nothing outside the text” to mean that there is no reality. He’s been defended on the basis that there is no inside and no outside and so the outside is itself pure text. We’re thus not in a prison of representation placed opposite some clean and clear reality (the thing in itself which we have an imaginary relationship to) but that reality itself is a text or a semiotic series of traces. It’s a bit like Heidegger who has the concept of ecstatic temporality: each piece is kind of deferred into other pieces, interlinked and always-already “textual” Derrida was likened to quantum theory and there’s a really good book by Plotnitsky where he gets into the relation between Derrida, Bataille and Nils Bohr in terms of “undecidability,” which is a term that Derrida used himself along with pharmakon, differance, etc.

If you’re a fan of Solaris, btw, I think you’ll love Aniara, but it’s a tad pessimistic!

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All things are possible. Great idea. There are platforms evolving quickly, functionality will all be turn-key before we know it. For me its all about finding a really good “why”. This is a good why. Adding a nice gorilla image to it might be nice as well. Just sayin’.

Art talk beyond my comprehension does not sway me from the fact that NFTs are simply contracts, provable, immutable. Nothing more, nothing less. The very existence of a human being can be used to steal their ID - bring in something like zero knowledge proofs and we can change this. Working from there, the potential is mind-blowing and the onslaught of this technology, again, is already eating the world. Tokenizing a building to share ownership - basically an NFT. Digital Nike’s that you wear in virtual worlds to impress others - NFTs. Coca-Cola swag that your Avatar can wear - NFT - happening already. On and on it goes. I could give a rats ass about a jpeg and any value ascribed to it, I ain’t buying any Bored Apes - but I do see it as just another digital currency and scarcity is the value driver to many investors. Provable scarcity is a very new concept as well. Add provable authenticity, and something like zero knowledge proofs to the mix - and we have something that many will ascribe value to, including myself. Decentralized insurance is coming very soon and so much more, all smart contracts, all NFTs.

Why do NFTs excite me? I am a simple man, its money: as in a commission that can be earned in perpetuity from art you already sold. I like the word perpetuity. It’s a good word. Am I parking my car on that dead end circular street and driving in circles forever? Gosh I hope so, because I will keep earning that commission on each and every loop.

But nobody wants to buy my art, I am one spec of a human with more blues riffs in his fingers than he has artistic ability, sad but true. I do however consider myself the super-suit that creatives wear to get things done in miraculous and efficient ways. This is my super power. It is a collaborative thing, I need the spark of the brilliant creative minds like the folks I have been blessed to work with over the years - and I love to tell the story of that process. That story might very well be a good NFT - perhaps released as a movie or a plot of land in a virtual space commemorating what Logik has done over the past ten years and where they are headed for example, or maybe it will just be a series of jpegs with historical significance that people might want to collect. Either way it is a permanent record on an immutable decentralized blockchain. Not too shabby.

By the way, the new Samsung TVs support NFTs. What that means I have no idea but we will all know soon.

Cheers!

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I feel like this thread should be split into three:

2022 collaboration project
NFTs
Art and Philosophy

Cos they’re all interesting threads, but each message is getting lost amidst the others.

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Luckily for us both Ralph, and for more, I’m defo not looking to set-up any anti-NFT church and to keep anything at all sacred from its profanations, even as I seek to point out the dreams of the sacred that are housed in the dream-house of the NFT that can lock something up and guarantee it. I’m quite happy to play along and have no skin against the game. What matters, as you say, and as I said, is the contract and the, by extension, social contract and the smart contracts that tether and guarantee and which can “tether” (I keep using that word as a mantra) something to something in an imaginary unity. Was sincerely not looking to create some kind of art-speak algorithm but was looking to boil it down a little, but sure it can come across as a little woolly. “At the end of the day” it will all be about the bargains and the contracts and the (performatives) that tie an “I do” to and “I do” and a “I hereby” to a “I hereby to.” A guy called JL Austin wrote some really good stuff on this stuff of contracts, back the day in a book called “How To Do Things with Words” where he talked about performatives such as marriages, bets, ship launches and death sentences (well court proceedings of swearing and “I hereby sentence you’s”). The digital economy has been all at sea without these tethering devices that such performatives bring that guarantee “occasions” and so these NFT’s are bringing back that ghost and there’ll be quite a few spins around before people start asking questions. Like Mike’s point about how much the Harry cost, there was a tonne of money made out of it before it was retired and so I totally appreciate how many spins in a circle that can be made with this dynamo-NFT. There’ll be a lot of trust in it for a while before those systems and beliefs (performatives need beliefs) that support it start to come under question. Didn’t mean to open this out into artspeak, but I don’t think there’s a common sense to be had here, but something that is certainly going to help the current economic model stretch its legs a little more and make some hay whilst the sun shines (and harness some of its rays). It does seem to connect with the current paradigm, but paradigm are always built on shifting sands but hey, what is there beyond sands that shift. NFT on!

Cheers
Tony

PS. Yes Andy, I think I’m guilty of giving the final 3rd in this misrule of thirds! I tried to tie it back to collaboration (and if, btw, you want some help with story/concept building I would be happy to help with story or concept on the first part of the three). I won’t hijack this thread anymore on the Art and Philosphy thing as it really is moving outside of the point of the thread and was kind of haunted by that as I was rattling my keys!

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I love what you’ve posted, that’s why I want it all split up. The philosophy of art is interesting to me, and I don’t know nearly as much of it as you.

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Cool, maybe we open up another thread on Philsophy and Art and call it Flaming-Out? People could write and muse about things to do with Flame in terms of speculative things that Flame is or could be bumping up against. It wouldn’t have to be Flame-focused but Flame-thinking. Flame is moving and wanting to move into all sorts of directions and pehaps some of these borders and frames and mutating frames (between Flame and Flame-like software) that composites surfaces, that can be more than screens, for screens, as we know are mutating into all sorts of surfaces and spaces that are often bendy and often mutable and often thus “live” and “reacting” to environment('s) cues and environmental goings on. With many movements in ML there seem to be spaces opening up that play the boundaries (not quite Minority Report in terms of holograms that say “hey you!” which is a references to Althusse and interpellation), but surfaces that react less directly but in relation to. I can imaine a queue of nodes with some that react to something, a little like the plug-in that someone created a while ago that could be plugged into a HDMI but a few rungs on. I could imagine David Crites getting involved in something like that at museums. I’d be happy to joint-muse on things in a separate thread that might bump and grind up against Flame’s toolset but also a kind of conceptual wishlist of what Flame might bump into that might make use of philosophy of art (that often is to do with technologies, say going back to perspective that was “invented” to help sell and secure a worldview).

Cheers
Tony

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I’m paying attention I just don’t know where to split up what!

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Just don’t split up the atoms @randy !

Great chat on the art philosophy stuff and yeah love it to be in another thread to be continued !

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I think a thread about stretching Flames boundaries would be great, Tony. I’m very much interested in the art and philosophy side of things as well.

Display and playback technology is evolving fast, and at least in my world, there is a push to utilize the tech in new and interesting ways for storytelling. I’d love to hear what you and others on this forum would have to say on the subject. I think a multitude of possibilities are there to be imagined. Exciting times.

Best,

dc

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Nice one David and Paul, I’ll open up a thread at some point soon to open up some further chit-chat on speculations to connect Flame up with speculative uses. I cannot help but dream a few years ahead and see Flame as capable of having nodes that input and output in ways that are not files but spaces in the expanded sense. I was very excited, as a kind of proof-of-concept of the HDMI trick that had a live connection into Flame which could then have Action interact live with the input and output. C21 Frost in the making? Again, I can only imagine what ML will be capable of doing in terms of interaction. This is a little speculative and biological but with Paul’s mentioning of semiotics, I was reminded of this. This is a guy called Jakob Von Uexkull’s sensor (input) effector (output) that’s been influential in a school called biosemiotics.

In closing up thoughts on NFT’s in this speculative mould, that has gone too far outside the ambit of this thead (soz) I was taken with the hanging pregnant question about the function of that Samsung NFT function in waiting. I think a visit to media theory, again, can help to unpick that a bit. Back in the day Jane Feuer wrote about television as something that has “liveness” as its ontology as opposed to film. The “nowness” and the “aura” (again, Walter Benjamin) of what we’re watching and that wish to “be there” watching that game and that scoring in the now, if not quite the here (hic et nunc) is what satisfies a lust for being-in-the-event and feeling that you cannot miss it and thus you were an undivded part of it. You are watching a game on the television, you pause it to visit the bathroom. If you are quick you are only 2 minutes behind after you unpause and carry on exactly where you left off. Like the transporter thought experiment it is the exact same thing, and yet something seems to be missing. You are now outside of the live blood supply and feel something like vampire drinking dead blood, if I can coin a rather abject image. You feel frozen out of the live moment, even though you are only watching fro 2 minutes behind what some other quite imaginary are watching, whose heads are “in-the-game.” Again, the tethering to the singularity of the event is what you crave and what you believe in (there’s a book called “Eletronic Hearth” by Cecelia Tichi that talks about making an American family like we’re (well, I’m from UK) all in the same boat and all sittting around the same live folded out fireplace. I cannot help but think that this “key” and “contract” that you say Samsung has placed on this latest model will seek to give you some NFT (life-live)support, and again I go back to my point about all the layers of support and frame that are contingent and doomed to pass. But it’ll get some bums on seats most probs?!

Cheers
Tony

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Nice one David and Paul, I’ll open up a thread at some point soon to open up some further chit-chat on speculations to connect Flame up with speculative uses.

Tony, please do so. Will happily take part. Perhaps on the topic “what is art, really?” Will become the next War and Peace, but this time a community effort.

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I was thinking something similar as I was reading the “VFX vs practical” discourse online. We in VFX argue that VFX and practical shots are the same because they are visually equal. That’s not the whole picture though. Half of the joy of a Jackie Chan movie knowing that the guy falling three stories, driving through a shanty town, or crawling across hot coals (and even sometimes singing the theme song) is Jackie Chan.

Knowing that Tom Cruise is in the backseat of a F18 for Top Gun 2 does add to it. I know he’s not flying it, but I also know he is actually being launched off a catapult. That’s awesome. Even if other jet shots are CG, knowing that they shot real jets adds to the meta-movie experience. Cos that’s kind of the thing, right? Movies aren’t just what’s onscreen. They’re the actors, the directors, the stories that come out about filming. There is something to the living blood of it that dies when it’s all in a computer.

So I get why there are so many PR stories going “WE DID IT ALL PRACTICAL” even when we all know it’s bullshit.

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That feels to me to be a great example Andy, and I was talking to a disseration student about something very similar in terms of digital avatars and sythespians and I’d mentioned NFT’s to him as a similar discourse on authenticity and the problems of such notional authenticity when you get into the thickets. We were speaking about the romantic ideals of actors “putting their he/arts into it,” and those famous method actors who dive in deep with their signature intentionality in becoming and subsuming) and how “signed-in” and “signed-up” they are with their signature being, as opposed to the synthespian who is “modeled” on someone/something dead and so someone else controls the strings. Unlike with reflections of vampires (!) where the glass cannot capture their live appearance on the scene, what you see is what you get, but apparenty, and yet in-apprently, we believe that there is something transported “in” via the vessel and yet no blind (single, double) taste test woud be able to uncover the authentic. “Knowing” that Tom Cruise actually cruised is like all that authenticity that had Hollywood couples really in love, instead of play acting. This, again, plays very nicely into the performative, that is apparently a gold standard and that the more degrees one is separateed from it, the more tainted and inauthentic it is. Paper-pushers placed against the apparently potent " real deal" even though we need convincing by some inspiring publicity dept!

So, according to Austin, if you say something authentically then it actually happens, but if you are drunk, are not of sound mind, are play-acting, or ape or parrot (for animals cannot “mean”) then it leans on the thing, without being the thing: it is a parasitic speech act. The example I always use is Ross and Rachel in Friends. The “will they won’t they” is doubly stumped in terms of distance from “real” marriage and thus “real” commitment. All the way through we’ve wanted them to get it together, and then they go to Vegas, not for NAB, but end up getting married by an Elvis. Thing is, they were drunk and so were not married. Luckily, for the actors, they were also acting and so the words didn’t “stick.” So, the performative needs to be “backed up” or it is a sh*t deal! There’s a funny thing going on in the pUKe at the moment about what constituters work and what constututes play with Boris Johnson having a party in the no10 garden during lockdown. The squeezing out of the jam and the pickle seems to be the flexibility in the authenticity of the event and how the home is work and the work is home, in this case. I’m not following too closely, but there’s some interesting borders of what is sobert and what is drunk and what is social and what is actual (work).

It’s also a bit like the difference between a symbolic and an indexical sign, according to CS Pierce and here Roland Barthes used this argument in Camera Lucida when he’s talking about a photograph of his mother. He argues that it, the photo (pre-digital) is not a symbolic (words are symbolic signs in that they have an arbitrary, and not natural or any appearance to their signified or referent) or iconic (looks or appears like what it signfies) relation to what they point towards but an indexical one that is “actually” connected. A little like the projecting pipe from Donnie Darko he feels there’s a link from his now dead mother to the photograph he now nostalgically stares at. The light hits the lens, hits the films, gets developed and englarged and now he is staring at a concrete remainder of that time, that place, and that some indubitable, inhabitabled, having-been-ness. This is what people often decry in having been lost. If, however, there are only always-already but traces then it becomes something of a problem. There is a strong mythology around indexical signs that are apparently wedded, welded and connected to what has been but is not necessarily there, if it ever truly was, in all its supposed all-together-ness!

Returning to NFT’s (to keep this post within a more eminent domain) a colleague earlier sent me an email with a link to this story. He wittily titled the link “the work of (f)art in the age of mechanical reproduction.”

Rather than paraphrase my reply, I’ve pasted it across as its close to what we’re talking about here and I think it’s a really funny story:

*Funny that’s it’s a fart as the wacky unforgivable who’d-a-thought, and so apparently hard to monetise, item of interest, or accrual in interest. The inflation of the fart (both bodily and financially) is actually something I broached in two publications trying to liken what comes from the head (thoughts, art, etc.) against what comes from the tail (the fart, etc.) with a quasi-concept I developed called "excrementality" (a joining together of two previously opposed topographies). It’s a great play on Benjamin with that title and I dig the way that she is playing with this newly coined space of exchange and almost auto-destroying the idea/l. There was something on the World Service yesterday morning about the Portrait Gallery, I think, selling certificates of works of art as NFT’s for certain of their artworks. Was funny how serious the business slot was on this trend. No critical discussion but an acceptance, though they did put that famous proviso on about the seller keeping the “thing itself” even though your NFT thing is as good as golden! Honest. ***

***Yes the works of fart for the discerning fetishist who can at least hold onto this passing wind, in not passing time, is a great fart experiment, that seems to circumvent the secondarity or supplementarity of the art work that does not give you hold of the thing. She kind of makes it sound like the NFT is primary and that the jar that will be sent along is the secondarity, thus reversing the art work order of proceeding. In any event the parergonal structure (the supports that the supposed free-standing thing needs in order to be trusted as being what it apparently already is) is often a part of these things. I remember hearing about Andy Murray last year selling an NFT of some prize that he’d won but, obviously as it seemed to him that the “buyer” might beware that it really is something of “his” that they are partaking of, that he “threw in” some dinner or some do with him. The NFT seemed haunted by some excess that he needed to plug with a meet and greet into, even though that was a supplement. ***

The fart, at least, is given its time. Perhaps there’ll be a two girls and one (fart) jar reprise. If I was their agent I’d suggest they could do a retread of that!

Cheers
Tony

A bit tied up at the moment (but enjoyed typing the above) but will try and open up a thread in the not-too-distant. Am afraid Hans that, whilst I do see the sprit of your suggestion, I couldn’t put my name at the top of a thread that actually asked that question, in all sincerity. I am a great fan of Orson Welles’ essay-film F-For-Fake (love to buy an NFT from Oja Kodar to make of me a hypocrite!) as it does such a good job/jab of deconstructing the work of art, in playing with the idea of the fake. I only ever see arguments for “what is (art)” and would never believe in arriving at some “answer.” I do like some “warm” explanations (such as Russian Formalists who say that art is what defamiliarises us from the mundane and accepted) but never feel that we can reach the summit of some transendental red-hot sunshining “ART”

Cheers
Tony

On the play to earn topic - again for those that need money, not fun. Amazing amount of info.

The crisis is also in aesthetics :nauseated_face. I want to see how far this fad will stretch. As if “money” wasn’t enough of an illusion, people went and made it even more fantasy like.

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Cant you already just do this really easily by generating a hash of the file and having it associated with it? just have a table of masters with its hash and its pretty impossible to mess up.

I’ve never seen anyone do it before, but it would be kinda neat/cool to have absolute certainty about these things

I’ve never heard of this. I don’t understand it. In my head I was thinking it was possible to embed something in the picture which can be recognized by a player. Is this what a hash does?

I’m going to start an open thread on something I’ve been working on for a while and someone, or somebodies, may be of help. It’s very open-ended and “gift-economic”…I’m going to open up a thread called “Timeless” to see if there’s any interest…

Cheers
Tony

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